How Artists Are Using the Metaverse

Jeremiah Krage 0:01
I don’t know what the arts gonna look like. But I think that this new canvas that we have, which is virtual worlds is going to allow us to expand the human imagination far beyond anything we’ve ever done in the past.

Chris Bruno 0:12
Welcome to all about the metaverse podcast, the show that keeps you up to date with the latest technology, trends, and news about our future digital world. Hello, everybody. And welcome back to a brand new episode of The all about the metaverse Podcast. I’m joined by Alexis, of course, my co host.

Alexis Nicosia 0:29
Hello, everybody. Nice to be here. I don’t know which episode are we now in 2007.

Chris Bruno 0:37
We’re still early.

Alexis Nicosia 0:38
Nice, good stuff. Well, that’s nice to be back.

Chris Bruno 0:41
Where are we today? We’re joined by Jeremiah. And I’m really excited about this conversation because Jeremiah is actually doing something in a virtual world. And I think that’s what this podcast is all about. So, Jeremiah. Hi, thank you so much for coming to join us.

Jeremiah Krage 0:54
Hello, thank you so much for having me. I’m thrilled to be here. It’s great to be both of you as well.

Alexis Nicosia 0:58
Maybe it was worth for listeners, you want to tell us a little bit about you. And what is the relation between you know yourself, the metaverse and, and all the art that you guys are doing.

Jeremiah Krage 1:09
Yeah. Great. Thank you. Yeah. So I I’m an artist, I have a background in performance. And I love emerging tech. So I have a an interesting background in terms of bringing those together. So I originally trained in theatre, I spent about 20 years performing in children’s television. So I’ve done things like Teletubbies and the doctor who shows like that. And the reason I ended up there and this is relevant is that when I was studying theatre, I really did not want to do straight drama. I didn’t want to recreate real life on stage. I figured why what’s the point? When we have this amazing opportunity to create completely new worlds outrageous, bigger, larger than life characters, non human characters? Why not do that. And that’s what I wanted to do as a performer. So I developed this niche as a creature performer. So that means I’m in full body costumes, I’m playing in unrealistic worlds, and I’m playing unrealistic characters. And from there I began to discover a real interest in and a capacity for creating art, and but still holding on to this larger idea of like, what it is, what are we trying to do with art? What’s the point of this why I didn’t want to recreate reality, I wanted to explore possible realities, possible futures. In the same way that I was doing as a performer. I wanted to do that as an artist. And that led me to exploring these emerging technologies. Once I realised that there was this emerging space. This Metaverse this, these the, but not just there was another space. But there were also tools that were making it easier for people like me, who don’t have a technical background to interact with them and actually create in these environments, I got incredibly excited. So what I’ve just recently done is put together my very first exhibition that’s taking real world artwork that gets physical paintings like this, behind me sculptures that I’ve created with my hands, and translated them into a virtual space. And, and I have to underscore I don’t have a technical background. i

Alexis Nicosia 3:13
Why don’t you tell us how you do that? The way you said the way you say because like, Okay, everybody can do it without the technical background. So what are the tools that you disposition? You know, to do? Exactly, that’s great. Or you just, you know, like, copy pasting some stuff that’s there. And, like, put a bookmark in there. Yeah, that was me doing that?

Jeremiah Krage 3:31
No, that’s the thing, because like, I’ve been in web three for for over two years now. And I’ve been looking at what it was like, Oh, my goodness, great. I’ve got NF T’s fantastic. I want to make NF T’s. But I have the skills for to do it. Well, I had some of the skills, I had the I can do some photoshop work and such like, but I, I also think what’s the point of not leveraging the medium, I feel like the work has to be able to use the medium to its advantage. Like, why are we putting it because I wasn’t I was there was no point to just taking a photograph of an artwork and converting it into an NFT. To my mind. I know people do that. And that’s fine. There’s no judgement on that. But I if I’m going to use this new technology

Alexis Nicosia 4:13
will actually judge is not let’s go like a job where we see some crap out there that’s looting all these all these NFT spaces,

Chris Bruno 4:21
you know, the rules and access we we talk about but we don’t.

Jeremiah Krage 4:27
So the question is like, if we have this, why, why use it? What is it that this new technology this new environment has to offer? And how can we leverage it? And that’s I believe it’s really critical and fundamental. Otherwise, we’re just replicating what we already have on a new medium where we are copy and pasting, as you said, Alexis, and that’s it, which is going back to really going right back to the theatre work. I didn’t see the point of replicating real life on stage. I know you can make an argument for it gives us a way of examining it and exploring ideas, but I wanted to take it further and we had the opportunity to So why not do so? So back to your question about the technology? There are two things I found that were actually incredibly simple. Once they started getting I had the idea of a virtual exhibition, I started Googling, okay, like, how do I do a virtual exhibition? Like what are what platforms might already exist? And there are several that do that, and some that are specifically designed for artists. But I had a very specific set of criteria. I was aware of the metaverse, I’ve been playing in different meta verses, but most of them require in order for anyone to interact, you needed to have an avatar, you might have to have a wallet, there was there were lots of friction points. So I wanted something that allowed people and the litmus test was my dad, could my dad access this exhibition? So and he’s there’s no way he’s going to sit through Ready Player me tutorial and try to figure out how to create an avatar look, he doesn’t care. It’s like, that’s just why bother. And and there’s don’t even go there with a wallet and setting up a wallet. And you know, all of that stuff. Like that’s just a whole other level of friction. So it couldn’t have those features, even though they were those would be great. And it had to be able to have a way to show my sculptures because I work with ceramic as well as paint. So I’ve got these three dimensional shapes that I needed to somehow show and convert into the virtual spaces. And a lot of them only allow you to do paintings, and I found one platform, it’s called Koonce matrix, and they’re a German company, you have to

Chris Bruno 6:18
be really careful with how you pronounce this nexus,

Alexis Nicosia 6:20
I would have guessed that word like, push them. Push them. To Jeremiah, you see it again? See it again was about four auditors. Sure. What is the

Jeremiah Krage 6:32
cost matrix?

Alexis Nicosia 6:35
Cool matrix, okay, then

Chris Bruno 6:38
in the edit, I will put it down below. So you’ll all be able to see it on the screen. But it’ll also be in the show notes just to make that clear for everyone.

Jeremiah Krage 6:44
And have to say that the team are fantastic there. Because like I said, I don’t have a technical coding background or technical background. So I had lots of questions, because I didn’t know how to do everything. But there was two things. So one, I had a platform now that that was low friction, anyone could access could literally, they have a whole series of three dimensional galleries with the empty walls that you can drag and drop images onto. But they also have put a plinth that you can put a three dimensional object on. So okay, great. This ticks all the boxes in terms of a space that I can host the work. And the next question is, how do I take these three dimensional physical objects that I have in my studio? And actually put them into that space? And again, it’s like, I don’t know. So it’s back to Google? How do you do it? And I heard about nerfs and photogrammetry. So I knew it was possible. But everything was sent. You need an iPhone, you and I know Chris, you’re gonna say of course, I know. You’re big. A me.

Chris Bruno 7:38
I don’t have an iPhone who doesn’t have an iPhone, I’m confused.

Alexis Nicosia 7:41
Me, what do you may know me, I don’t have an iPhone.

Jeremiah Krage 7:44
And because the iPhone uses a particular it uses LiDAR, which is a particular way of like, you know, depth perception. And there’s amazing apps and every app I came across like, Oh, here’s an app that does it. Only on Apple, another one only on Apple. But I found a few that worked on Android. And they use a slightly different technology. And one of them is called Curie Curie engine, or the Curie app, Ki R i. And, and with all of these things, I’m always downloading them and having a goal. It’s like, oh, this is terrible, or this doesn’t make sense. I don’t know how it works. Again, because I’m not super technical. I’m actually more technical than I’m making myself out to sound but I don’t but I. But it’s like I need something that works because three, four hours go into tutorials to learn something because I’ve got enough other things going on in my life, I need something that just works really quickly. And I downloaded this app scanned a T ball that I just happen to have. And I could not believe it, it was just instantly, just my mind was blown. Because I could spit on my phone, I had a full three dimensional model replica of this table, I could spin it around, I could look upside down there to look inside it. It was perfect. And it was because it’s photogrammetry it’s actually taking photographs and stitching them together and using AI to create a seamless shape. But in three dimensions, it just this is it this now I’m ready to go I have all the pieces I need I have the artwork. Now I have a tool to translate three dimensional pieces into a space and I have a space to put it into and that space is accessible anyone with a web browser will be able to access this gallery so I was off to the races are nice. Not that it’s that not it makes it sound like oh that’s it you just to scan everything. It’s not it’s not immediately it’s like several of the pieces that I was scanning like I had to do like three or four times. I was totally scared of blender which we if anyone is an artist and doesn’t know blender it’s like the free 3d Editing programme and if you open it up and you don’t if you’re coming from just like Photoshop as I was, it’s completely overwhelming because it can do so much and but I ended up having to do a few tutorials on like how to clean up some of the models and do a few bits because the scale was a bit of an issue and then they were too big. But I was also getting a tremendous support from the In this matrix platform, their customer support was extraordinary. So it was another thing is asking questions.

Alexis Nicosia 10:06
Oh, good. So what So is that cool, cool, cool culture matrix? Is that Is it a free, free platform as well? Or how does it work,

Jeremiah Krage 10:13
it’s free to create a gallery, but you can’t make the gallery publicly accessible. Until you subscribe. And I think at the moment, the lowest tier, which is what I’m on is, I think $12 a month. So it’s very, very affordable for an exhibition

Chris Bruno 10:28
on their website. So cons matrix provides quality online tools to curate and present art virtually. And they do offer this so obviously, I think we have to probably mention on this show as well blade, something similar to a spatial, for example, where you can create your own virtual space. But these guys have focused it more, I think, to make it a specifically within the art space, and also specifically within those 3d spaces.

Alexis Nicosia 10:51
Actually, there’s another one called vertical vertical with a K, vertical dot arts as well, they are repository of basically art and, and ancient that say, was going to say culture. Yeah, so it’s, it’s really, it’s really a tower, a virtual power, of course, it’s floating on top of Manhattan. They want to be repository of arts and culture, I definitely encourage you guys to visit that place as well. Vertical dot arts, again,

Chris Bruno 11:22
none of these things are sponsor. So I just thought I’ve mentioned that.

Alexis Nicosia 11:26
Of course, of course, not. Because it’s good that we put forward right, all the spaces that are available, because, again, one of the mission of destroys is not so much to evangelise people. But as well to show them that, you know, there are things out there that are happening, right. And so it’s so great to see those platform allowing, you know, artists, you know, burgeoning artists coming on board, you know, developing something that they never thought would be art, and then all of a sudden, tools are there, and they are allowed to do the most magnificent and, you know, emotional things. Because I think that’s one of the questions we had Chris last time. And, and Jeremiah, tell me if if you do believe that I believe one of the thing that will bring people to the metaverse is, is when they will have emotions linked to the experience they’re going to have on the members. If it’s boring, there’s nothing to do it. This is not a big deal. You have no emotions. Why would you go?

Jeremiah Krage 12:17
Right? I agree. 100%. And you mentioned Alexa serve spatial I love spatial. Because for two things, one visually, it works. It’s beautiful. It’s smooth. It’s I I’m not a fan of the pixelated sort of crypto voxels type thing or sandbox that just doesn’t appeal to me that probably a generational thing. Or exposure, I don’t know. But it’s like spatial like wow. And instantly you get a free space, you get to have it, you can decorate it yourself. It’s like oh, it’s just like, so they’ve reduced a lot of friction, which is fantastic. But the big question is, what do you do there? And I think that’s that is an issue with so much of this is, is what do we do when we get there. And there might be an activation by a brand that we all show up to check it out. And then we leave again, there’s nothing to retain us. And this might be a bit of a hot take. But at the moment, my favourite Metaverse is fortnight, because there’s always something to do. There’s always something to do I know what I’m there for. And there’s always something happening. And it’s always engaging. And it’s an ad it’s visually beautiful. The other day, I just logged in, and I found a way to turn all the sounds down and I could stream Spotify at the same time. And I just ran through the landscape. I just went to the landscape and it was beautiful. I was in this completely transported.

Chris Bruno 13:33
I’m gonna jump in on this point. And the only reason I’m gonna jump in. And so in last week’s episode, we were talking massively about the insider article by the PR guy Ed Zitron. And I really hating on that article all week. I’ve been posting stuff about it, it really pissed me off. But he posted the article that said basically rip Metaverse and he basically, although it was an opinion piece, it was very much pushed by Business Insider as a piece of news. And I think that was the piece that really writes me off about it. Interestingly enough, it was Tim Sweeney, the CEO of epic, who basically was like that like taking the absolute piss out of this article. But he was like that, yep, completely. The Metaverse is dead, we should just invite all 600 million VR and gamers that are using these platforms like Minecraft like fortnight like Roblox, and all 600 million of these people should come to the vigil. And I think it was a really interesting point of just reminding everyone like we do and we try and do every week on the show. The numbers of people when you start adding things like fortnight or like Roblox, the number of people that we’re now talking about is exponentially huge, right? There’s 600 million gamers using these platforms. These platforms are more than just games and this is the key thing, right? It’s not like the olden days.

Alexis Nicosia 14:53
Well that with Jeremiah, we see it’s a platform. It’s a platform to go and discover some some arts and you know, like football People that don’t have, you know, the opportunity of maybe going to museum or no need because they don’t have the time or because it’s so far away. Also maybe because you know, maybe that particular museum is not the type of arts they interested in. Now we have, you know, another gateway to something that is very emotionally connecting. It’s arts, and I think art, it’s, again, we keep mentioning was so we say that education will be very important for the metaverse. Delighted to have you on the show. So we can really speak about how much arts will be important for for the metaverse in general as well. As you know, we see all the type of industry like notably, we see travel industry as well, you know, taking advantage of what the metaverse has to offer. But, um, yes, having artists and creativity and you know, having so many tools that can decouple creativity and imagination, and again, I’m not saying about like doing some doodle nfts Even though that may be considered as arts, you know, having having this this tool in this environment, it’s, it’s fascinating, really. So Jim, I want to ask you, so um, so you’re doing that, obviously, I understand as an artist, you’re doing that because that’s your your passion, but at some point, you’d like to monetize all these efforts as well. So how do you go about that?

Jeremiah Krage 16:16
Well, okay. There’s several factors. And actually, I just want to just just go back really quickly on what a Tim Sweeney was saying is, is it what Metaverse are we talking about? That be I view my virtual gallery that I’ve now created as a pocket? metaverse? I think it’s self contained on metaphors. But it’s still a metaverse. It’s a virtual interactive world that anyone can go into and walk around and interact with. And so if we expand the idea of what the metaverse is, it’s not just these, these, these sort of headline platforms like Roblox and fortnight and so on that, that there are many other forms of the metaverse and I do think they are going to slowly converge. And that will be like like, I know, you had Gaurang on a few episodes back with the the eip, 5606, setting multiverse and

Chris Bruno 17:03
these

Jeremiah Krage 17:04
so that’s right looking for a while we’re moving towards greater interoperability. And when that occurs, and as that becomes easier, then all of these smaller versions of the metaverse will start to converge. And that means there will be just less friction and more opportunity for everyone to engage with it. Because they’re different. They’re multiple entry points, not everyone’s a gamer. So like, for me, I do a tiny bit of gaming, but I’m an artist, so I’m coming at it from a completely different angle. And once though, my method of of onboarding is more seamlessly integrated with all the other forms that other people are coming in through, then we start to create literally an entire another world where that has all the nuance and layers of these other worlds. So your question, I think Alexis was monetization of art. So the third the platform that you can use, it’s the it’s very easy for if someone likes a piece of work, they can click on it, they will find out more and then they can get directly in touch with me or any other artists who uses the platform to request the work. There is still a lot of friction around payment rails, I mean even which is really interesting. I think that’s going to be an interesting question to resolve as we move forward is what is a sort of universal payment rail that anyone can use? But and don’t get me started on shipping? And international shipments open

Chris Bruno 18:25
is usually the the standardised payment method, right? I know.

Alexis Nicosia 18:33
You guys saw but actually talking about coins again, we’re not demonising anybody but depot, gigantic penis, like spewing cash out of the out of the head. And that was like, treble treble coin. And I bought some of the triple coin and I can tell you we did not do what depot was promising these crazy few cash sorry,

Chris Bruno 18:55
you’re telling me that you bought a coin called turbo coin had no backstory, nothing about it that has any kind of basis in reality, and it didn’t make you money. That’s not how web three is supposed to work.

Alexis Nicosia 19:08
But that’s how we tried to make it work. I mean, come on dip into that the reason why I bought that Fitbit thing is because I’m sorry that the turbo things because again, people did you know like a little something about that. I just thought it was funny. But also because you know is like fully AI constructed sort of a token I do buy I don’t buy token and this is not financial advice. Don’t buy any token that is promoted by an artist that tends to shuffle the deck and fuse out money like that. Okay.

Chris Bruno 19:33
Now also don’t buy anything that we talk about on this show. Definitely not financial advice. Sorry, Jeremy. I derailed that definitely but Pepito can not being the monetary side of it. But you are right, that there is a real problem in terms of how do you buy stuff and how do you interconnect these things to make it simple. So what can you buy? How does it get delivered? Where does it get delivered? If it’s a digital product, we’re talking about things like wallets and things like that as well. We had a Really interesting conversation with a massive, big brand in the real world like web two world. They’ve done a huge collection, they’ve got tonnes of people claiming these free NF T’s, for example, they end up using an email address to create a wallet using one of the third party platforms that are available. So underneath there’s things like web three auth. And then literally, once they’ve got that they have a wallet. But they don’t have any interest in our wallet. What they were interested in was claiming whatever it was that was free or getting access to whatever it was that was theirs. Once they’ve got that it’s the wallet side, like you said, right? If the litmus test of your dad, if your dad can’t get into this, it’s never gonna happen. And I had another conversation literally this morning, we were recording something else. And the guy said it really, really well. It’s the complexity of onboarding, which is limiting web three. And it’s so true. As soon as you say to someone, right, you’re going to set up a wallet, but make sure you don’t lose these 12 Key magic words. And if you don’t have those magic words isn’t all yours. But actually, all of these things, right? It just makes for a level of complexity, where if you went to sign up for a bank account, and somebody told you, you’ve got to keep these 12 words, and if you’d ever lose these 12 words, you lose action to all your money. You wouldn’t do it. You just wouldn’t

Alexis Nicosia 21:10
record? No, I think I think I think if that was the rule, that was the rule, then, then that’s

Chris Bruno 21:16
okay. Right. So there’s an element of I want to I want it to be my face that has those 12 Like things, right? No,

Alexis Nicosia 21:23
no, no, at night, it gives us Ignasi, because it’s the same as for driving a car, you need to have that piece of paper, which you need to, you know, do that much, you know, learning work before going on the road and kill everybody. And if you don’t have that piece of paper that you want to donate Yeah, you don’t have access to, you know, it is as

Chris Bruno 21:41
complicated as driver’s licence identifies who you are with a photo, your name, your address, and you’re like, it’s the most KYC document in the world,

Alexis Nicosia 21:49
my ability to do to have a lethal weapon. That’s right, right into the car.

Chris Bruno 21:57
Anyway, sorry, Jeremiah.

Jeremiah Krage 21:58
But no, but But I think to your point, I think that’s where some of these other brands, like we’ve seen with Starbucks, or MasterCard, I think, doing sort of self hosting, now, they’re warm wallets, I think they’re calling them they’re, they’re hosting it on behalf of the user. And they’re kind of just stripping that away. So it’s not even mentioned, really, it’s in the same way that you have it on your Amazon account, and they have all their just hold, they have essentially almost a wallet on your behalf or your credit card is. And so there’s just there to function in the background. And I think once we get to the point where things are functioning in the background is that the moment the infrastructure is in our face, and we all are engaging with the infrastructure, and once that infrastructure actually sinks down to the level where it’s supposed to be which is underneath and supporting the activities, then we can just carry on with the activities that we want to do. The question is, are there activities that we want to do in this space? Like what’s the utility of this space? And I think that’s that’s a yet another question. However, I do think and just to tie this back to what, because someone might be listening, or why is this artist who’s making real world artworks, like I’m not even working with digital artworks working in this space, and it’s because I believe this space has tremendous potential for evolving humanity. I think it’s the next step in human evolution, culturally as well as as a species. Because once we really embrace what’s possible here, then we’ll really be able to push culture, it exponentially further.

Alexis Nicosia 23:36
It transcends people, it transcends culture, it transcends race, it transcends a lot of things.

Jeremiah Krage 23:40
Exactly. Yes. I agree that I was thinking about this just the other night, once we get familiar and comfortable with interacting with other people who have virtual avatars that don’t look like them. We start to create the very first gap that’s ever happened in human culture, where we’re no longer judging people by what they look like, which is such an ingrained, fundamental subconscious

Alexis Nicosia 24:02
reaction when during the reptilian times,

Jeremiah Krage 24:05
I’m sure because I’m sure you just if you think about it, like even on that very primitive level, the bigger more muscular is probably going to be the more attractive for mating with, you know, if you want to increase your bloodline, get continue your bloodline. So the evolutionary level, it’s programmed into the human brain to make judgments about external appearances of other people. And whatever the culture if we could, actually quite a bit of space between that that really primitive programming, and how we show up and interact with people culturally and on a one to one level. And if we actually Intuit three generations in the future where everyone is so familiar and used to meeting with people and not knowing what they physically look like, but how only react interacting with an avatar that might actually start to trickle back into our into human relations when we actually meet people in person and go actually you know what, that person may not actually Be what they look like. And then it’s okay. And that’s okay. And you know, because then we were judging them on the interaction we because when you meet an avatar, you have no idea who that person is you can’t look at their trainers and go, Oh, those are Fink, Air Force ones or whatever, or that’s a fake Balmain handbag. It’s like, we can’t judge them for that, or that looks like them wash your hair in three days and make judgments about it. We’ve seen the avatar and we don’t know who’s behind it. So then the only thing we have to judge is how they interact with us. And then we’re getting into some really interesting new dynamics. And where does that take us in the future? Well, listen, I

Chris Bruno 25:37
mean, Jeremiah, I think we could probably talk about this, especially with Alexis, here. And he’s gonna end up bringing up the entertainment industry as being the future of how this all ends up interacting together. But before we wrap up, I want to ask you one last question from my point of view. And I’d love to know what your point is, what your thoughts are on this. But what do you think the future of art looks like then in the metaverse?

Jeremiah Krage 25:58
That’s great question. And I think that the reason I’m hesitating is because art is so dynamic, and so diverse. And it has such, there’s such a wide spectrum, because there’s art that responds to the now and there’s, there’s reactive art, and then there’s art that’s projecting into the future. And then there’s art that doesn’t fit within either those categories, plus the legacy of art that we have behind us. So I don’t think we can even imagine or conceive what art will look like. But I do think that the media that we use to create the art is going to expand. And I think there’s a great, there’s there’s so much potential in working that with these virtual worlds as a, as a multi dimensional canvas that we’ve only just barely started to scratch the surface of. And once we have, okay, let me let me reframe this. I don’t know what the arts going to look like. But I think that this new canvas that we have, which is virtual worlds is going to allow us to expand the human imagination far beyond anything we’ve ever done in the past. And that’s the exciting thing is that we are going to be working and thinking in completely new ways that we because we’ve been so constrained, just unconsciously constrained by the physical world around us and how we interact with it. And once those constraints, once we realise those constraints are no longer necessary, that we don’t have to worry about the weight of a material, we don’t have to worry about the cost of a material, we don’t have to worry about the size, I can build anything at any scale. And I can create work that will persist over maybe aeons into the future using Blockchain. We know that blockchain can persist forever provided the infrastructure is there to support it. Once we start thinking on these scales, that scale now is no longer a limitation, then where do we go imaginatively, and when we really truly embrace the scope and potential of this, then we’re gonna see an explosion of, of, of human consciousness and imagination, and it’s going to be extraordinary. But we have to start being bolder, we have to start taking advantage of this new space. And so just for anyone who’s listening, who’s an artist to think, like, I’m not technical, keep checking out what’s available, because the three months ago, the apps and the programmes I was using probably didn’t exist, and they do now. And in three months from now, there’ll be new ones that were going to make it even easier for someone will be

Alexis Nicosia 28:29
here, Jeremiah to remember to remind everybody, I’m ready for

Jeremiah Krage 28:31
season two.

Alexis Nicosia 28:34
Really, thank you so much for for, for putting all this information out

Chris Bruno 28:38
really quickly that what I will say you said something that Jeremiah and I think is huge and allowing us to expand human imagination more than ever before. And to me this is still this is why Alexis and I turn up every week to do a podcast about the metaverse the potential. We talked about this a lot. It’s not about what’s happening right now. It’s about where we end up and where we are in 1020 3050 years. And again, remember this that weird? You know, if you would ask people back in the days of Henry Ford, just getting started whether they wanted a faster horse or whether they wanted a Model T they would have taken the faster horse like this is where we’re at right and I think that’s just a really, really important piece. I love that quote from you. Jeremiah, where can people find you connect with you so that they can come and ask you directly what you did what tools or anything else that they’ve might want to to ask?

Jeremiah Krage 29:26
Yep, so you can find me anywhere at Jeremiah Craigie so Craigie as que rag, all one word, and that’s on Twitter, Instagram, my website, Jeremiah craigie.com. So pretty much LinkedIn Jeremiah Craigie, so yep. Feel free to get in touch. I love talking about thinking about this. I love having my own perceptions and limitations being challenged. So this is the future and we all need to be pushing each other to think bigger and broader and wider and longer term. Because it’s exciting to So

Alexis Nicosia 30:00
wonderful. If you’re here, get here now really appreciate that. Jeremiah. Thank you so much.

Jeremiah Krage 30:06
Lovely to meet you guys.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai